Monday, 19 December 2011

Plaid and the "I" word.

It seems that Syniadau has lit the Blur Touchpaper ,on  his recent Blogs on the call to discipline both Dafydd Elis Thomas and Rhodri  Glyn Thomas to the extent that he states...
"When I and others made our formal complaint about what Dafydd Elis-Thomas and Rhodri Glyn Thomas had said, our first purpose was not to get either man deselected. We sought a conciliatory solution, recommending that the party should formally instruct them to make public statements saying unequivocally that they support the aims of the party ... and specifically the aims of independence for Wales within Europe and Wales becoming a member of the United Nations. We only wanted to see a more severe sanction if they refused to make such a statement, and suggested that this should be removal from the party's national register of candidates so that they could not stand for Plaid Cymru in future elections"
Not being a Party member Its not for me to judge on this cal,l.But here goes anyway  Although I understand the frustration Syniadau has. Can a Party which can not command anything like the support the SNP in Scotland afford to carry in squabbling over Syntax?

What has emerged is an intolerance on the part of some Plaid supporters with those who shy away from the "I" word partly because they feel that as no Nation is truly Independent these days then the word is meaningless.

The problem is there is no other word that seems to be available,and I use it because that Independence in Europe means equality with countries from the likes of Germany to Luxembourg (Though even here some are more equal than others).

I have considered the possibility of a Federal Britain here but I feel that politician in England would not be willing to accept a role where they are not the dominant partner .

So as you can read on my Profile I accept the "I " word because I can see no other.

Of course Plaids new emphasis on Independence has come after the success of the SNP in Scotland but those pushing it here should realise that the SNP have achieved their position by proving that they were an effective opposition with alternative plans for Scotland's future even under the current devolution settlement and when they did form a government proved to be an effective one.

Support for Scottish Independence has still not achieved over 50% in the polls and I am very doubtful that the SNP can win a referendum on Idependence.

But even if you think you are not going to get a 100% mark in an examination . That is not a reason not to sit it and even if  the SNP realised they can't win it, calling a referendum will make it clear that sovereignty over Scotlands future lies with the Scottish people and not Westminster Governments.

Though if there is a additional Devomax question then I believe this will be won easily.

Plaid and Wales are decades away from being in such a position and whilst there is no reason that the Party should make its ultimate goal clear. It must also work to increase the powers of the Assembly and seek to secure parity with what ever Scotland will receive from a Devomax vote and reach out to those who feel that they can accept this even if they have doubts about Independence.

By raising the issue in such away Syniadau has shown that Plaid will seek to place Independence on the forefront of its policies (and why not) but the response to a pretty poor spoof on Dafydd Elis Thomas' position from some  commentators (who believed it to be true) show that some supporters are intolerant over those who are not in complete agreement.

However those who have doubts should treat the Party members and suppoters  with respect. It is one thing to show disquiet with a the major part of aParty policy its another to think as Dafydd Elis Thomas and Rhodri Glyn Thomas have , that they are above Part discipline whether it is fitting or not.


  1. I've got fewer doubts about the outcome of Scotland's referendum. Do remember that there are three years of austerity ahead, and the world economy is in flux.

    The Scots don't want to be ruled from London by a Tory government (I dismiss the LibDems as an irrelevance.. they're bonded to the Tories else they'd be wiped out in an election).

    The SNP has proved to be popular in government and three years is a long time for Salmond to prepare the Scots for the decision.

    So far, the Westminster government has been making all the wrong moves regarding the Scotland Bill, adding grist to Salmond's mill.

    The truth is is that the unionists just don't get it. They really don't believe that anyone in their right minds would not want to be part of their London-centered world and all the benefits they enjoy. They have no idea what it's like to live fifty miles or more from their comfort zone.

    The Scots put more into the UK economy, into the tax pot, than they take out, so I don't easily dismiss the SNP's bid for independence. They already have support in the upper 30's percentile, that means they only have to win over about 7-8% of the population in the next three years.

    Even taking that into account the vast majority of the Scots want much more power at Holyrood, and they're not going to be fobbed off with not getting it.

    Neither do I agree that Plaid is 'decades away'. We are at a point where Scotland will have a real effect on Wales' future.

    If Scotland achieves independence or 'home rule' (just short of independence) then Wales faces a future of perpetual Tory government.

    I don't believe the people of Wales will stomach that... we'll have a war against Iran in all probability, for instance, or some other insane US-sponsored adventure, whilst Wales goes further down the drain towards penury.

    These are interesting times.

    Plaid needs to get its act together. It needs to ditch the likes of DET and RhGT and get to grips with the fundamental issue of Wales' constitutional status which determines everything else.

    RhGT is short-sighted if he thinks the economy trumps that - that's unionist propaganda.. 'you're too small, too weak, too stupid to see to yourselves.. let us keep in you perpetual dependence'. Only 'they' - the grown ups, can handle the economy. Just look at the mess they've made of it!

    Plaid has all to play for. Much will happen in the next decade. We might even see the Labourites in Wales becoming nationalists, rather than be governed by Tory toffs for ever.

    In political terms, Wales' future is bright - Plaid needs to get into position to take advantage of the way the winds are blowing.

    If no more candidates stand, then I intend to support Leanne.

  2. @glynbeddau

    I think most of all Plaid need to get real, their internal naval gazing, which has been going on for years, is alienating a lot of natural supporters, if a party can't agree about what it wants then it looks opportunistic, and no one has a reason to support them.

    Having party figures giving different versions of what the party stands for makes them sound like Wales answer to the Lib Dems, telling each audience what they think it wants to her.

    @ maen_tramgwydd

    Wales is perfectly happy to vote Labour come rain or shine as they engaged in 'insane US-sponsored adventures', including talking up an attack on Iran, and continue to do so while Wales goes further down the drain.

    Do you really think that Wales will stand up fot itself just because the tories are doing exactly the same thing?

    We'll just keep on voting Labour, getting poorer but feeling ok because Carwyn occasionally writes a strongly worded letter to London saying that he really isn't very happy about it all.

  3. "Not being a Party member"

    Better join soon then, we've got a new leader to elect! Get involved!

  4. Totally agree with the comment above i've nothing to add apart from i'll be voting for Leanne also.

  5. Dedeiax

    You should read my comments carefully before coming to totally incorrect conclusions.

    Because I criticise the Tories it doesn't follow that I supported Labour's support for US-sponsored illegal and immoral wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    These unionist parties have done Wales no favours. A plague on both their houses. As for the LibDems, no-one knows what they stand for and are an irrelevance as far as Wales is concerned.

  6. Anonymous 17;45.

    I accept yout point. But it would be wrong to rejoin Plaid simply to help the candidate I prefer win.

    My problem with Plaid is taht like all political parties Theres a hierarchy and members are treated like foot soldiers only to se someone who has never worked on the streets canvasing , delivering leaflets being the candidate when election time comes.